Reverse discrimination

[Sophia Rearen]

Women should be able to wear whatever they want. Men should be able to wear whatever they want.
Wouldn't a dress/skirt without hose be cooler than a skort?
I love those sleeveless blouses/tops, whatever you call them. I just told my wife a week ago, men should be able to wear those. The appear cool in temperature.
I, for one, have my own reasoning for wanting women to wear dresses and it's not stepping on anyones neck. I appreciate women in dresses and skirts. Very simple. It makes them more feminine. It appeals to me. It's attractive. It's ...
So, I'd like to see more of them, yes. Doesn't mean you can't wear anything else. I also, have another selfish reason for wanting more women to wear more skirts and dresses. As a CDer, I like to go out. I like to blend in as best as I can as a regular woman. I, typically, like to wear a dress or a skirt when I do so. As a genetic man, why would I want to wear pants while going the rest of the distance? But, I digress. If I go out in a dress or skirt, chances are I will look and feel more feminine, that's good. However, wearing a dress or a skirt, since rarely worn by others, now has become similar to spotting an endangered species. So, the attraction is placed on me, when all I want to do is feel and be feminine without causing a scene. Ironically, we are an endangered species. We are out there, no one really knows how many of us there are, yet we certainly are in danger from the common man.

[GG Vanya]

I agree totally with every word you said Maria.

I've often pondered what would happen if the headlines in the morning read:

OK FOR MALES TO WEAR FEMALE ATTIRE

Would the loss of the "taboo" element take all the fun out of it for some?

And your remark about F2M's is spot on! That's exactly why I think the path they walk is more difficult.

[HaleyPink2000]

It is diffrent for Women GGs! They are allowed to, by our culture, to wear what ever the heck they want... We " CDs" for the most part, are not. Thats changing slowly. I'm pretty sure over time it will completely change for males. Just not tomorrow! LOL

[jamie_44]

Clothing does not make the person, I think you should be free to wear whatever is comfortable for you. Society judges too much on appearance. There are truly more important matters to worry about.

[GG Vanya]

Women should be able to wear whatever they want. Men should be able to wear whatever they want.
Wouldn't a dress/skirt without hose be cooler than a skort?
I love those sleeveless blouses/tops, whatever you call them. I just told my wife a week ago, men should be able to wear those. The appear cool in temperature.
I, for one, have my own reasoning for wanting women to wear dresses and it's not stepping on anyones neck. I appreciate women in dresses and skirts. Very simple. It makes them more feminine. It appeals to me. It's attractive. It's ...
So, I'd like to see more of them, yes. Doesn't mean you can't wear anything else. I also, have another selfish reason for wanting more women to wear more skirts and dresses. As a CDer, I like to go out. I like to blend in as best as I can as a regular woman. I, typically, like to wear a dress or a skirt when I do so. As a genetic man, why would I want to wear pants while going the rest of the distance? But, I digress. If I go out in a dress or skirt, chances are I will look and feel more feminine, that's good. However, wearing a dress or a skirt, since rarely worn by others, now has become similar to spotting an endangered species. So, the attraction is placed on me, when all I want to do is feel and be feminine without causing a scene. Ironically, we are an endangered species. We are out there, no one really knows how many of us there are, yet we certainly are in danger from the common man.

Sophia,

I well understand the desire for more women to wear dresses to enable you to "blend in". But is it fair to pressure the GG's (whether it's your wife or GG Public) to comform to your desires or wishes in order to achieve this for you?

This is what I meant by "stepping on necks".

I have a very specific reason for disliking dresses and skirts worn frequently. As a Pentecostal minister's daughter, I was forbidden to wear ANYthing remotely resembling male clothing until I married and left home. I was ridiculed and outcast by many in school because I couldn't wear shorts in P.E., and miniskirts were all the rage back then. I couldn't do that either, but I did find a way to blend in more. I made all my clothes back then, and I started wearing a lot of skirts, and would roll them up at the waistband as soon as I got on the school bus. You see, I *do* understand the desire to blend in. But never did I feel everyone else should abstain from wearing mini skirts and pants so "I" wouldn't stand out like a sore thumb.

I now wear dresses when I want to dress up, not because someone else thinks I should.

And no, a dress sans the hose is not cooler than a skort. Add to that the fact that my job requires that some days I am in and out of a vehicle all day~not very graceful in a dress.

P.S. The sleeveless blouse is called a "shell".

[bredalee25]

When I say a woman can wear anything and not be looked at twice. It's not me saying it's wrong or trying to stop GG's from wearing what they want to. It's the fact that GG's can wear whatever they wish to but a CD can't.
Look at it like this you can go to the mens wear dept at any store buy something and go home put it on and go about your buisiness. I on the other hand can't go to the womans dept and purchase an item and go home and put it on and go about my buisiness without being seen as a freak or weird for doing so.
So I in no way am trying to stop you or any other GG from wearing what you wish. I just want the same treatment and freedom to wear what i wish no matter what it is.

ttfn

[GG Vanya]

It is diffrent for Women GGs! They are allowed to, by our culture, to wear what ever the heck they want... We " CDs" for the most part, are not. Thats changing slowly. I'm pretty sure over time it will completely change for males. Just not tomorrow! LOL

Correct, but this has not always been so.

But on the other hand, men have always had the right to vote.

Females' freedom to wear what we choose didn't happen over night, and my "ForeMothers" were in the trenches fighting for the rights I now have.

I think MEN should also be allowed to "wear whatever the heck they want". I sincerely hope it happens sooner rather than later.

[Tamara Croft]

Would you say a guy in a skirt not trying to M2F is crossdressing?

This is the kind of stuff that pisses me off. Because somehow you believe it IS different when you do it.

Whinging..... moaning...... blah blah blah..... posts like this piss me off because people like you DON'T GET IT!!!!! Most GG's that wear male clothing AREN'T TRYING TO BE MALE.... do you GET THAT??? or is it really bloody rocket science???

Sheesh.....

[Jenna1561]

Well, another Hot topic here.

There are times when enfemme in my small town that I wish more women wore dresses so that I wouldn't stand out so much.

There are times when in drab in my small town that I wish more men were overweight and wearing shorts so that I wouldn't stand out so much.

But I understand and affirm each individual's right to dress as they desire. My wife's and my fashion sense are very different. I do not attempt to force my fashions on her. She wears skirts occassionally and dresses rarely.

I like wearing a skirt, but many times wear shorts and jeans to blend in and because at times they are more utilitarian. I still very much feel like a woman. The skirts and dresses are nice and feminine, but it's what's inside that makes me feel like a woman.

If I decide to wear a gypsy skirt and tunic top to run errands around town, but most women are wearing shorts or capris, then I do. If I want to throw on a pair of jeans and a shell then that's what I wear.

So wear what you want, and I'll wear what I want.

Love,


Jenna

[Sophia Rearen]

Sophia,

I well understand the desire for more women to wear dresses to enable you to "blend in". But is it fair to pressure the GG's (whether it's your wife or GG Public) to comform to your desires or wishes in order to achieve this for you?

This is what I meant by "stepping on necks".

I have a very specific reason for disliking dresses and skirts worn frequently. As a Pentecostal minister's daughter, I was forbidden to wear ANYthing remotely resembling male clothing until I married and left home. I was ridiculed and outcast by many in school because I couldn't wear shorts in P.E., and miniskirts were all the rage back then. I couldn't do that either, but I did find a way to blend in more. I made all my clothes back then, and I started wearing a lot of skirts, and would roll them up at the waistband as soon as I got on the school bus. You see, I *do* understand the desire to blend in. But never did I feel everyone else should abstain from wearing mini skirts and pants so "I" wouldn't stand out like a sore thumb.

I now wear dresses when I want to dress up, not because someone else thinks I should.

And no, a dress sans the hose is not cooler than a skort. Add to that the fact that my job requires that some days I am in and out of a vehicle all day~not very graceful in a dress.

P.S. The sleeveless blouse is called a "shell".

No, absolutely not fair. I would not do such a thing. My wife hates wearing dresses. I understand your excuse. Can't figure hers.

Wow, learning all the time. A skort is cooler. I get the car thing, makes sense. Function over fashion. And it's called a shell. So many terms/names! Maybe I'll go back to trying to be just a guy. Shirt and pants, done.

[Kate Simmons]

Vanya, I can see your point. As far as I'm concerned there are no "standards". Anyone who tries to make them is no better than the "world" who does not accept them for who they wish to be. If you set CD or any other kind of "standards" you are no better than the people you are fighting against. I love everyone on this Forum. Diversity is what makes the world go around, otherwise we would all be clones of some sort. I celebrate everyone's individuality, it's time everyone else did also. The person you are inside is the one that counts, regardless of what you choose to look like. Can I explain it any simpler? Love, Ericka

[noname]

Whinging..... moaning...... blah blah blah..... posts like this piss me off because people like you DON'T GET IT!!!!! Most GG's that wear male clothing AREN'T TRYING TO BE MALE.... do you GET THAT??? or is it really bloody rocket science???

Sheesh.....

I'M NOT TRYING TO BE FEMALE... don't you get it? It's not rocket science.

I don't wear a wig.
I don't wear makeup.
I don't wear bras.

Though I don't try to pass, ( I could with ease ) maybe I don't belong here? But I will say I still get stares and looks. But I guess you wouldn't understand because you don't get those types of looks and stares.

[CaptLex]

But I will say I still get stares and looks. But I guess you wouldn't understand because you don't get those types of looks and stares.

Well, I get the "is that a boy or a girl?" look every day - but then, I am trying to pass. Does it bother me? Depends on my mood. Some days I wish people weren't questioning me with their eyes, but some days I think I must be doing something right if it keeps them wondering.

[GG Vanya]

To gently guide us back on topic, allow me to explain it this way:

I have a friend who is a substitute school teacher. (union job)

Substitutes have few to none when it comes to benefits.

Every year, when it comes time to negotiate the contract, the topic arises regarding benefits for the subs. Every year it becomes a battle. The full time teachers' positions are:

"Sure, we all want the subs to have more, but NOT if it means we have to give up any of OUR benefits as negotiating tools. We fought TOO hard and TOO long for our rights. We paid our dues, we were subs once too."

Putting it in that context, hopefully the CD's (read substitutes) can understand my feelings as a GG (read full time teacher).

[Dee 1062]

dress as you like...who cares...not me saids Dee.

[Jodie_Lynn]

http://www.crossdressers.com/forums/...ad.php?t=37046

This thread in the lounge is an example of what I'm trying to point out. It seems to be a "lament" if you will, that women don't wear dresses/skirts, and the fact that it makes it more difficult for CD's to go out without being read.

And no, I absolutely do not think F2M's have it easier. I think they have it much tougher than M2F's.

Let me try to word it this way:

It seems that, with few exceptions, every time the "women don't dress feminine anymore" topic surfaces, it has a negative/critical slant to it. Please don't criticize us for doing exactly what you wish to do: Dress as you choose!

I think you may be misinterpreting the "lament".

It is not said in a way that would deny women the right to dress as they choose, not to 'force' you back into girdles, bustles and June Cleaver dresses.

It is more a question of equality for CD-ers: A woman can choose to wear a skirt, dress, slacks, jeans, skort, etc and no one bats an eye. But, on a 105 degree day, how many heads would turn, and tongues start to wag if the male CEO of your company showed up in a pair of shorts and a polo shirt (the kind men wear on a golf course....), or worse, A sleeveless blouse and mid length skirt with sandals?

Case in point: Up to January of this year, I worked for an electrical contractor in NYC. Big strong union guys.
One electrician showed up last August wearing Khaki knee length shorts, and a salmon polo shirt, mens wear. The General foreman freaked out and told him he'd have to go buy a pair of pants or be sent home. The electrician replied "But I have the legs for it" which sent the rest of us in howls of laughter. It seems that his pants had "zip-off" legs and could be worn as slacks or shorts he re-attached the legs, and everyone was happy.

But the point was that if you don't dress as "expected" for a male, then you are open to gossip, innuendo, and all that other tripe.

I think, to boil it down, is that the "lament" is just a CD-ers way of asking for equal opportunity to dress as one pleases, without fear of ridicule.

[tekla west]

My union rules state "shorts are NEVER acceptable work wear." I'm sure it had more to do with that, with shorts not being safe to work in, then in anything else. After all, they didn't say anything about the color of the shirt.

Rules for work are different. When I taught college I wore a suit, when I work on a stage I wear black, when I work the street I wear a mini and fishnets (not really).

[GG Vanya]

There could be various reasons why the union electrician wasn't allowed to wear shorts on the job. It "could" be OSHA regulations concerns, or simply that it was a violation of company dress codes.

I disagree that I misinterpreted the "lament". I've seen some CDs here ridicule their wives to no end because they (the wife) do not meet their standards of female apparel.

I also previously referred to those who would prefer that more females dress in skirts and dresses, to facilitate their (CDs) "blending in" more when out en femme. My position would be that instead of asking the GG's to dress in anything other than their personal choice, the CDs could perhaps dress more like the general GG population. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

I saw a closing statement in someone's (a CD)post the other day which I can *not* seem to find now which said, in essence:

As crossdressers, we supposedly admire females to the point of emulating them, so why do we so often insult them?

[Jodie_Lynn]

perhaps, unconsciously, those that insult GG's do so because deep in their mind, they KNOW that they can never be 'truly' female. Sometimes, we turn on our idols simply because we have placed them on too high of a pedestal.

Not to be argumentative, but I have also seen insults, either knowingly, or not, fly from the fingers of women here as well.

A GG on this thread made a remark to the effect of "I've paid my dues...." and bringing up the point that "men have always had the right to vote". These statements could be looked at as hostility to any male presuming to intrude on the 'space' alloted to women. I'm not saying they were, but a person could choose to view them as such. It could also be looked at as making those males present pay for the misdeeds of their forefathers.

It has been my experience in life that if we CHOOSE to look for the slur, or the insult, or the degrading comment, then we WILL find it. Even if it is our own perceptions that color it so.

[GG Vanya]

perhaps, unconsciously, those that insult GG's do so because deep in their mind, they KNOW that they can never be 'truly' female. Sometimes, we turn on our idols simply because we have placed them on too high of a pedestal.

Not to be argumentative, but I have also seen insults, either knowingly, or not, fly from the fingers of women here as well.

A GG on this thread made a remark to the effect of "I've paid my dues...." and bringing up the point that "men have always had the right to vote". These statements could be looked at as hostility to any male presuming to intrude on the 'space' alloted to women. I'm not saying they were, but a person could choose to view them as such. It could also be looked at as making those males present pay for the misdeeds of their forefathers.

It has been my experience in life that if we CHOOSE to look for the slur, or the insult, or the degrading comment, then we WILL find it. Even if it is our own perceptions that color it so.

Jodie,

Yes, *I* made both those comments, but you're taking them out of context. The remark about voting was in an example of how GG's haven't always had the rights we enjoy now. The dues paying comment was in reference to an example I gave of how GG's should not have to give up our right to dress as we choose in order to make it easier for CDs to be accepted. And for the record *I* didn't make the dues paying comment. I was relaying something someone else said in a totally different situation simply for the sake of comparison. In neither instance was I attempting to insult or offend anyone, nor was there any hostility intended.

I don't see crossdressers as intruding on GGs' space. Perhaps you're not aware that I am married to a CD. I made an informed choice to marry him. I not only accept this, I participate in, encourage, and facilitate Trudi's femininity. I absolutely adore sharing my allotted space with her!

It's difficult to perceive a comment that one's wife dresses like Fred Flintstone as anything other than being a slur/insult/degrading. Surely you and I can agree on this point at least?

[Jodie_Lynn]

See? I wasn't implying that you WERE being insulting, only that some could perceive it that way.


And I'm passing familiar with your relationship with your hubby. I've been around here for a bit

I didn't see the "fred Flintstone" comment you are referring to Vanya. But you're right, that IS insulting.

My point was that sometimes, an insult is only an insult because we make it so. For instance, my wife and sister. One can tell the other "good morning" and that one will come running to me asking "what did she mean by that?" Ya see, they don't get along so well, and are always assuming the the other is making a dig at them. But it only because they are CHOOSING to be antagonistic towards one another.

As to the poster who made that comment (about you V? ) they should be horsewhipped. with a real horse.

[Billijo49504]

Instead of agueing about who can wear what, Can't we all live as a great big family?The world needs more peace...BJ

[noname]

It is more a question of equality for CD-ers: A woman can choose to wear a skirt, dress, slacks, jeans, skort, etc and no one bats an eye. But, on a 105 degree day, how many heads would turn, and tongues start to wag if the male CEO of your company showed up in a pair of shorts and a polo shirt (the kind men wear on a golf course....), or worse, A sleeveless blouse and mid length skirt with sandals?

** Portion of post removed **

I think, to boil it down, is that the "lament" is just a CD-ers way of asking for equal opportunity to dress as one pleases, without fear of ridicule.

Thanks Lynn, well said, espeically your point about equal opportunity.

[tekla west]

Maybe she does dress like Fred Flintstone. As the remark was tied to her working in the high tech field, and high tech is nothing if not low fashion. They call them geeks for a reason 'ya know. Moreover a lot of women tone it way down at work so they can a) avoid being hit on, b) to blend in and 'be one of the guys,' which in high tech means white sox with sandals, high-water pants, old faded mediocre rock band shirt, glasses fixed with tape and a Ferrari in the parking lot. (I kid, but you get the idea) I know women who don't have a single skirt or dress. Matter of fact, skirts/dresses are forbidden in my work dress code as they are "not practical."

As for voting, anyone from the land of 'graceful plantations' should well know that the right to vote was not open to all men, not even all white men.

[ReginaK]

Who knows, in another 20 years it's entirely possible you'll see J C Penny's catalogs catered to the M2F crossdresser. I hope so.

That's a bit optimistic. Recognition starts at home. Before corporate America starts recognizing us, we need our wives, girlfriends, mothers, etc to recognize us and not be ashamed of us.

I also previously referred to those who would prefer that more females dress in skirts and dresses, to facilitate their (CDs) "blending in" more when out en femme. My position would be that instead of asking the GG's to dress in anything other than their personal choice, the CDs could perhaps dress more like the general GG population. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."

But what would be the fun in that? If we dressed to blend in, it would be a waste to call it crossdressing.