Are crossdressers insulting to women?

[jaina]

I really don't care who is insulted, or why they are insulted by how I live my life.

[crunchysoda]

I *can* see what your wife is saying. It's not about the clothes, the clothes are so superficial so to say you are emulating us by dressing, is in a way offensive.

To narrow down what it is to be a woman, to what we wear is insulting.

I *do* find a lot of fashion/beauty mags insulting, wouldnt it be great if there was a mag that said "You are great just the way you are dont buy this new makeup, or learn about the newest plastic surgery technique, or the newest fast 250 cal diet" ect ect.
BUT that wouldnt make $$.

I look at clothing cataloges, because I need some winter clothes but then ALL of the women in them are probably 30-50lbs thinner and 3 to 6 inches taller. I think why bother? There's no way I can look like that.

I feel bad for the younger girls who *think* this is normal so they starve themselves to try to fit into an image that is all an illusion.
I guess in some ways I am just like all the young girls, minus the starving myself.

I dont buy all those fashion/"women's" magazines though.

My day is consumed w/nearly dying in a car accident on Thursday, dealing w/chronic depression/mental illness, trying to take care of my 4yo old and just being. If only my life were so simple as to just worry about what "cute" outfit I "get" to wear tomorrow.

[Violetgray]

Are crossdressers an insult to women?

Well unfortunately I think the poor dear is making a few erroneous assumptions.. First and foremost..

1)That we define women by how we dress. But crossdressing is an outward expression of something internally feminine. Now what that may be exactly is debatable, but for me its an expression of my need to be beautiful. The only difference is, the feminine aspect is what is beautiful to me. Every man has a feminine side. CD'ing is just a need for each man to express his own femininity, something he is perfectly entitled to define. When she wants to look attractive does your wife put on a fake mustache, stuff a sock down her pants and belch alot? No, I'm willing to bet that she uses makeup, wears a bra, and puts on something flattering to her figure. This is according to her own definition of what makes her attractive, which she is entitled to. But so are we. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that we are not defining womanhood, but rather that which is feminine in us.

That having been said, what I think most people fail to realize is that the feminine side of a person needs to mature along with the rest of us. This is true for real women too. That's why you have stores that cater to teenage girls, and then stores for older women. Girls tend to dress a certain way at a certain age, then they progress. With men for whom femininity is a larger percentage of the overall pie, this progression is just as necessary but stunted by lack of opportunity. CD's usually have a lifetime of being denied this opportunity to express, and often compensate by trying to make up for lost time. Do you remember the Michael Jackson lyric, "Its been my fate to compensate for the childhood I've never known?" Just switch 'child' with 'woman.' I remember when I finally got cleavage down, I was so happy about that that I was always wearing low-cut stuff, just because I could! My girlfriend said to me "God, you're like 14-year old girl! 'Hey everybody, I just got boobies so look at them!' " And she had a point. But eventually I didn't feel the need to as much and I moved beyond it. Eventually I even wore pants when dressed up. But it took time to be confident in my own femininity.

Now when she says that crossdressers emulate women poorly by obsessing so much over their appearance, I think that is a misinterpetation. I think that really we are so deprived of our own femininity that we become fascinated with little aspects that women take for granted. Keep in mind that CD's find women very beautiful, and women look like women even rolling out of bed first thing in the morning. This isn't true of us, we start at a handicap. She says that we look like parodies of women. We don't want to, so surely she cannot fault us for trying so hard? We know that we're not women, but we DO try to do them justice on some level!

I'm sure she's a wonderful person and you certainly could have done worse on the acceptance scale, I just hope I can help her understand a little better. Its not a matter of where we put women as a whole, just a matter of where we stand in relation.

[countrygirl]

No, I do not think being a crossdresser or crossdressing is insulting to women. I wish people could accpect others for who they are and not what they wear.......


Amanda

[Kate Simmons]

Problem is, some folks idealize the gender aspect too much and totally forget life is about people being people and we get hung up on appearance or apparent intentions. We are all together in this and there is no other planet to go to(that I know of) to get away from each other. Regardless of what we wear or what we are physically, we are all PEOPLE and we all have feelings. There are many ways to try and understand the feelings of others but the best way is honest and heart felt communication. That is why some have trouble seeing the forest, too many dang trees in the way, pretty as they can be.

[Bethany_Anne_Fae]

Are crossdressers an insult to women?

Well unfortunately I think the poor dear is making a few erroneous assumptions.. First and foremost..

1)That we define women by how we dress. But crossdressing is an outward expression of something internally feminine. Now what that may be exactly is debatable, but for me its an expression of my need to be beautiful. The only difference is, the feminine aspect is what is beautiful to me. Every man has a feminine side. CD'ing is just a need for each man to express his own femininity, something he perfectly entitled to define. When she wants to look attractive does your wife put on a fake mustache, stuff a sock down her pants and belch alot? No, I'm willing to bet that she uses makeup, wears a bra, and puts on something flattering to her figure. This is according to her own definition of what makes her attractive, which she is entitled to. But so are we. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that we are not defining womanhood, but rather that which is feminine in us.

That having been said, what I think most people fail to realize is that the feminine side of a person needs to mature along with the rest of us. This is true for real women too. That's why you have stores that cater to teenage girls, and then stores for older women. Girls tend to dress a certain way at a certain age, then they progress. With men for whom femininity is a larger percentage of the overall pie, this progression is just as necessary but stunted by lack of opportunity. CD's usually have a lifetime of being denied this opportunity to express, and often compensate by trying to make up for lost time. Do you remember the Michael Jackson lyric, "Its been my fate to compensate for the childhood I've never known?" Just switch 'child' with 'woman.' I remember when I finally got cleavage down, I was so happy about that that I was always wearing low-cut stuff, just because I could! My girlfriend said to me "God, you're like 14-year old girl! 'Hey everybody, I just got boobies so look at them!' " And she had a point. But eventually I didn't feel the need to as much and I moved beyond it. Eventually I even wore pants when dressed up. But it took time to be confident in my own femininity.

Now when she says that crossdressers emulate women poorly by obsessing so much over their appearance, I think that is a misinterpetation. I think that really we are so deprived of our own femininity that we become fascinated with little aspects that women take for granted. Keep in mind that CD's find women very beautiful, and women look like women even rolling out of bed first thing in the morning. This isn't true of us, we start at a handicap. She says that we look like parodies of women. We don't want to, so surely she cannot fault us for trying so hard? We know that we're not women, but we DO try to do them justice on some level!

I'm sure she's a wonderful person and you certainly could have done worse on the acceptance scale, I just hope I can help her understand a little better. Its not a matter of where we put women as a whole, just a matter of where we stand in relation.

Everything here is spot on from my point of view, and I'll add that I have seen crossdressers DO things that might be considered demeaning towards women.

One example was a TS I used to know who had started on her hormone therapy. About 3 months in she made a comment along the line sof "Ohhh I just did an airheaded thing *giggle* The hormones are working and I'm becoming a woman faster than I thought".

I thought my SO was going to punch her right in the mouth for that.

*hugs*

Zara

[Sandra]

I personally don't think it's insulting but what I find annoying more than insulting is cders who seem to think that all ggs wear skirts up to their a*** and have to have makeup on and be dressed to the nines all the time, It aint like that.

[erickka]

Dee, I think you hit the nail on the head. I have heard that certain CD behaviors tend to tick off most GG's more than wearing skirts and heels. I love women, and just am jealous that I am not one (at times) but realistically, I respect the female role and would never want to make fun of it. That being said, I will continue to foster my utmost respect for women, and never intentionally hurt one's feelings, or tread on their territory. I still like being the strong shoulder for my wife and a lot of her friends. God bless them all.

P.S. Sandra, The tacky dressing that you mention in your post is one of the actions that I am speaking of.

[Tree GG]

How do you gently tell your wife that this isn't about her?

By bringing it to her, into a committed relationship, it becomes about her life as well.

Are Glamour, Vogue, Cosmopolitan Insulting to women?

Hell yes, they are insulting.

If men wearing women's clothing are an insult to women then I guess women wearing men's clothing must be an insult to men.

Ummmm, yes many men are insulted by that. Wonder why so many CDs bring that up? That comment is equally territorial.

I think it bothers some women that we can look as good as they do, or better.

That comment exemplifies the biggest "insult" factor - competitiveness. You may or may not look better than "some women". Get over yourself. I don't much care for vain people - CD, male, female or otherwise.

Women don't get insulted by your wearing skirts and dresses. Many of them find it kinda cute and endearing.

Women get insulted when you get ALL dolled up and think that you are being feminine. You aren't being "feminine" at all. Dressing up doesn't make you feminine. Clothes don't make the MAN, and clothes don't make the WOMAN.

Women get insulted when you seem to think that the superficial accutraments are what is important about being a woman. Real women know that they are feminine no matter WHAT they are wearing, and they can get miffed when you imply that the CLOTHES are what is important to femininity.

Real femininity comes from within. Real women know this and they want you to know it also.

JMHO

Stephie

Let me try to put it this way.

Women hear you say, "I love women and I want to emulate them."

Then you get all dressed up, heels, stockings, girdles, wigs, makeup, slips, dresses, and nails.

Women think, "Wait a minute!" "If you really want to emulate women, why aren't you kinder, more nurturing, more understanding, gentler, and empathetic?"

"What's with the clothes?"

"Is that all you think of me?"

Whence cometh the insult.

I can not add to that - excellent! Thank you Stephanie!

[Shadeauxmarie]

The old adage "Clothes make the man" comes to mind. That was never true. Neither do they make the women.

I can't tell you why wearing women's clothing is relaxing to me. It just is. Is it a psychological thing? Sure! If it wasn't, then I would be able to achieve the same results no matter what clothing I wore.

I can understand how a GG can feel threatened by this. I can understand how a man can feel threatened by this. Perception is reality. Therfore, if a women or man believes crossdressing is insulting to women, then it is. For them. I don't personally believe crossdressing demeans women in any way.

Anyway, since crossdressing is thousands of years old, I suggest a person that has a problem with this learn a little more tolerance.

[Sheila]

The real "problem" is that it treads into feminine territory -

The real problem is that some just do not have a clue

[bi_weird]

I'd like to weigh in agreeing with those who understand why CDing can be insulting. Notice the phrase, "CDing can be insulting", not "CDing is insulting". I'm not generalizing here. (Btw I'm FTM...ish. I live mostly as the woman I was born as, but also have this boyish side I'm learning about.)
Honestly, the insult is part of why I stopped hanging around on this side of the board. It's not that everyone says it, but it's prevelent enough, comments like "I don't understand why women don't dress up more. They're so beautiful and it's just wrong not to show it off." Or the implication that the most feminine thing in the world is a pair of panties or a cute skirt. Yeah, those are feminine articles of clothing. But I feel more like a women when with a small child then when wearing a skirt. (And that's not just because of my own gender issues.) A real women is a person, not just a look. And most of you see that. But sometimes some of you seem to get lost in the pink fog and loose sight of that. While it's understandable, it's something that you should watch out for. Be aware that being female is more than the clothes one wears, and don't forget that, even though the focus on CDing tends to be more on what you can't have: the clothes you're not allowed to wear in public. Anyway just my thoughts.

[carolinewalker_2000]

Interesting question; I think my take is that to be insulting there would have to be a deliberate intention to insult or ridicle. For me I don't "choose" to dress; I have to. It is part of who I am. Therefore I can't see crossdressing as being an insult to women, nor, if I think about, is it a "flattery by imitation". Something inside of me requires me to express my feminine side through the way I present myself; and if that upsets some people - male or female - so be it.

Even if I had the will power to stop dressing - and I have ABSOLUTELY no intention of going down that path!! - I would still have a need to express my womanly side somehow.

[Cassy11]

I don't think CD'ing is insulting to women. I love the women in my life and have worked for several women as my superiors and have nothing but respect for them. CD'ing is a personal thing to me. What started me to do it , I don't know but it was very early in my life and I liked the way it made me feel. I can understand women getting upset by some who dress over the edge as in looking more like a hooker or a clown, but thats just as demeaning to CD's as it is to women. It's a personal thing to us and not a personal attack on your wife.

[docrobbysherry]

Has anyone ever watched your pet cat or dog, and tried to figure out what your pet is thinking? I haven't, and I haven't thot about what women think of CD's either. To me, women r like another species. I just can't figure their thinking process out! Reading posts by men, about what women think, is rediculous! I haven't a clue, and neither do most of u! If u really want to know, ask a GG. Good luck listening to the 1/2 hour+ answer! Yeah, I know that's sexist talk. Not appropriate for a CD site, rite? Hah.
RS

[Tree GG]

I don't think CD'ing is insulting to women. I love the women in my life and have worked for several women as my superiors and have nothing but respect for them. CD'ing is a personal thing to me. What started me to do it , I don't know but it was very early in my life and I liked the way it made me feel. I can understand women getting upset by some who dress over the edge as in looking more like a hooker or a clown, but thats just as demeaning to CD's as it is to women. It's a personal thing to us and not a personal attack on your wife.

Wow.....if it were all conducted with such compassion. I don't think anyone is suggesting it is a deliberate or personal attack on spouse, but some manifestations, attitudes, comments and presentations are not done as respectfully as you present the case. When that happens, you are right, it's demeaning all the way around.

Unfortunately, even the most loving spouse may not realize the effect of his words such as: "Creating the perfect woman" (that one is admittedly rare); "I look better than my wife when enfemme"; "Why can't women be more feminine?" None of those create the atmosphere of support and sharing that simply "I feel so wonderful dressed this way" does. Sad.

[GACountrygal]

I'd like to weigh in agreeing with those who understand why CDing can be insulting. Notice the phrase, "CDing can be insulting", not "CDing is insulting". I'm not generalizing here. (Btw I'm FTM...ish. I live mostly as the woman I was born as, but also have this boyish side I'm learning about.)
Honestly, the insult is part of why I stopped hanging around on this side of the board. It's not that everyone says it, but it's prevelent enough, comments like "I don't understand why women don't dress up more. They're so beautiful and it's just wrong not to show it off." Or the implication that the most feminine thing in the world is a pair of panties or a cute skirt. Yeah, those are feminine articles of clothing. But I feel more like a women when with a small child then when wearing a skirt. (And that's not just because of my own gender issues.) A real women is a person, not just a look. And most of you see that. But sometimes some of you seem to get lost in the pink fog and loose sight of that. While it's understandable, it's something that you should watch out for. Be aware that being female is more than the clothes one wears, and don't forget that, even though the focus on CDing tends to be more on what you can't have: the clothes you're not allowed to wear in public. Anyway just my thoughts.

Great post Bi, very insightful
Nic

[goofus]

wouldnt it be great if there was a mag that said "You are great just the way you are dont buy this new makeup, or learn about the newest plastic surgery technique, or the newest fast 250 cal diet" ect ect.

There is a magazine like that...it's called "Ms."

[Kris]

I don't think dressing itself can be insulting to women, but the thought process at times can be.

Examples: It doesn't effect my wife , I am more womanly because of how I dress, oh my favorite, I dress and do girlie chores.....

But I don't let them bother me.. and there will be times when I am with someone and they look better than me..... and frankly I don't give a whoot!!

Hugs,
Kris

[Marla S]

Unfortunately, even the most loving spouse may not realize the effect of his words such as: "Creating the perfect woman" (that one is admittedly rare); "I look better than my wife when enfemme"; "Why can't women be more feminine?" None of those create the atmosphere of support and sharing that simply "I feel so wonderful dressed this way" does. Sad.

That's a good point, and it rises the question where do statements like this come from ?

Is it disrespect or the intention to insult someone ? No, IMO.

Is it thoughtless ? Yes

Is it a lack of empathy ? Yes

Is it a sign of aplomb ? Definitively not.

IMO it's a sign of tentativeness and desperate attempts of justification.

How serious should comments like this be taken ? We all should know better.

[Tree GG]

IMO it's a sign of tentativeness and desperate attempts of justification.

How serious should comments like this be taken ? We all should know better.

You're absolutely right, Marla. We should roll our eyes and walk away. Adolescent behavior/comments.

And I should probably walk away and let the phase pass (which it will, with or without me). I've nearly finished raising 2 children.....God help me, I don't have the energy for a 3rd.

[Nicole Erin]

Yes CD'ing is insulting to some women.
No matter what someone is or does, someone else is going to have a problem with it.

[Bernice]

If nothing else, this has been a thought provoking post!

I agree: No matter what someone is or does, someone else is going to have a problem with it. A child gives a teddy-bear a common Muslim name, and religious extremists call for a death sentence upon the child’s teacher. A hateful person from Topeka KS pickets the funerals of American troops because (before fighting a war) they do not first go door to door and kill all the homosexuals in this country. Hatred is not a family value, and clearly tolerance is very scarce indeed.

Is crossdressing insulting to people other than GGs? Should crossdressing be insulting? Should GGs be insulted? Should GGs be insulted by the crossdressing or by other aspects which typically accompany crossdressing? For crossdressing to insulting to women, does there have to be a conscious intent to be insulting? If so, is that intent relatively common or perhaps relatively rare? How should people who are insulted by crossdressing deal with the insult?

One generally has to make mistakes in order to learn from them. I’ll never forget once when I tried to apologize to my mother in law and explained there was no intent to offend, and she replied that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. From this I learned never to apologize to my mother in law. Was this the lesson she intended? I doubt it! In fairness, my own mother has been equally thoughtless and insensitive towards my own beloved, as no doubt have I.

If there is no intent on behalf of the insulter to commit insult, then who is in the wrong? Does the insultee not bear some of the responsibility for ensuring a constructive outcome?

As for crossdressing, given the clear possibility of insult, is it any wonder so many of us stay in the closet?

[Amanda FAB]

Simple answer:

NO !

[lisa_e_love]

We seem to have taken the issue from whether or not crossdressing is insulting to whether or not acting feminine is insulting.

There are so many posts here that say that being a GG is more than just about the clothes. I don't think any CD thinks that being a GG is just a bed of roses, picking out outfits and trying out new makeup combinations. But that's what CDs are into - outfits and makeup. By selecting those aspects and experimenting with them, CDs like myself derive pleasure and a feeling of security, escape or relaxation. When out in public I try to act with feminine mannerisms because I enjoy allowing my feminine qualities to take over when I'm dressed.

But by dressing up, CDs are NOT saying, "Oh, look. I think being a woman is ALL fun." We are, for the most part, well aware of the economic, psychological and emotional problems that result from being oppressed and underprivileged for so much of American and world history. Our dressing is in no way a mockery or a commentary on that aspect of womanhood. It is selecting an aspect that we enjoy and participating in it as well.